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Post by Clarino on Oct 22, 2003 15:01:39 GMT -5
I will pay ten pounds to anyone who can write down what the "Bach" sound is to my satisfaction. By this I don't simply mean the sound you make when you play a Bach horn. I want to know what it is about Bach trumpets that qualifies them to have a destinctive "Bach Sound". No-one talks of the Schilke sound or the Benge sound. What is it, auraly, that is unique to Bach trumpets?
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Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 22, 2003 15:58:52 GMT -5
Clarino --
I think there is a Schilke sound, a Benge sound, a Monette sound, whatever. The reason people talk more about the Bach sound is that there seem to be some attributes that are more or less unique to it, whereas most other "sounds" have a lot of characteristics that are quite common. (The exception of course, is Monette.)
Just because it's all relative, here are a few examples of what I think about some "sounds"...
Monette: deep sound, lots of fundamental and core, very little "halo" around the sound; thick sound and even thicker articulations; tendency for notes to sound uncentred
Schilke: a core that's warm, but not very big, a lot of "splash" around the core; brilliant sometimes bordering on brittle; not a lot of depth
Most factory instruments other than Bach: pleasant sound, not a lot of projection, somewhat dead-sounding
Bach: a sound that rings and projects at all dynamics; good balance between a meaty core and strong overtones; brilliant without brittleness when played correctly; sound seems to jump out without a lot of effort
Probably not worth 10 quid, just my 2 cents...
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Post by Groovyhorn on Oct 25, 2003 12:22:32 GMT -5
What do you think about using a Bach 37 ml for commercial playing? I'm playing in several commercial bands (soul/ funk) but sometimes I also perform in a jazz-quartet as a soloist. So it's about 80% commercial and 20% jazz.
I'm now playing a Calicchio which is good for the pop-stuff, but I don't like the sound for jazz. Should a Bach be a wise choice or is it too hard working in a loud-playing pop band?
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Post by trumplyr on Oct 25, 2003 22:17:06 GMT -5
I occasionally sit in with a big band here in my area. When I do, I play my Bach and switch to a Laskey " * " mpc to try to brighten my sound up a liitle. The " * " or "S" is Laskeys shallowest mpc's. I've never had any complaints, but I'm also playing 3rd or 4th book. Some of the guys here who play lead could give you a better idea about that.
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Post by Clarino on Oct 26, 2003 9:01:47 GMT -5
A good attempt NE, but I dissagree. The way you describe the Bach sound could easily be applied to my Benge. Or to any of the few Schilkes I have played. You seem a little biased towards Bachs, which is understandable if you are a long time Bach advocate. I am still not satified that your description of the Bach sound could not be applied to many different trumpets.
Nice try though.
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Post by TheMoose on Oct 26, 2003 10:24:36 GMT -5
Clarino,
This brings up another question, do players that can blend in a section dominated by Bach horns while playing a horn that is not a bach have a Bach sound and if they do how do they achieve it without playing a Bach trumpet? Or, does the Bach sound change with the player's mouthpiece choice? Does not the quality of projection depend on the brand of the horn or do things like bell flare, bore size, or any number of other variables have any effect on projection or tone? Is there a Bach sound? Like you I am waiting for the facts. To start a reply with "I think" does not make it factual.
The Moose
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Post by Tootsall on Oct 26, 2003 10:35:59 GMT -5
OK, really dumba$$ question here. I hear (read) so many guys asking if you can "blend" with "this" horn in "that" section etc. all the time. I can understand the need for a dead even sound regardless of whether you are sitting 1, 2, or 3 in something like CSO.
BUT...for virtually every other situation where there might be, say 2 or even 3 trumpets on each part...is it really important? I mean...if everyone is playing IN TUNE and with consistent dynamics ... nobody should stick out as being "bright", "solid", "sparkling", etc....should they? I've heard trumpets "blend" with flutes (admittedly rare...the flutes are almost always out of tune ;D ) and it sounds just great.
Do we not spend far too much time worrying about the "blend" of different makes of trumpet? I play in a group with: 1 6310Z, 2 ML 37, 1 YTR 6335 LR, 1 ML 72 L, 1 TR 200, 1 YTR 2335 plus my B1. When we play in tune, we sound good. When we don't, we don't.
NE, I think you might be the guy most qualified to respond to this one.
Toots
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Post by dbacon on Oct 26, 2003 10:41:45 GMT -5
What do you think about using a Bach 37 ml for commercial playing? I'm playing in several commercial bands (soul/ funk) but sometimes I also perform in a jazz-quartet as a soloist. So it's about 80% commercial and 20% jazz. I'm now playing a Calicchio which is good for the pop-stuff, but I don't like the sound for jazz. Should a Bach be a wise choice or is it too hard working in a loud-playing pop band? I use a Bach for at least 80% of my work, a very good Lawler for a more commercial application. My sound on a Bach contains more overtones, the Lawler brings out more of the highs. Attacks are much easier for the commercial work, you can pop a bit more. Too much for the type of playing I use the Bach for. Sounds like you could use both your trumpets in the same way. |
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Post by Tootsall on Oct 26, 2003 10:43:54 GMT -5
Both? I only have one. The Getzen is a cornet. And I don't "do" symphonic (yet).  |
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Post by dbacon on Oct 26, 2003 10:57:26 GMT -5
Both? I only have one. The Getzen is a cornet. And I don't "do" symphonic (yet). Toots, I was responding to someone else directly. But your Getzen Cornet is a fine instrument depending on when it was made. For concert band work it can be a lot of fun to play. |
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Post by Lawler Bb on Oct 26, 2003 11:12:06 GMT -5
Clarino,
I think NE almost nailed the Bach sound concept. I disagree with you. Benges, while a great horn, do not have the same qualities that a Bach does. A Bach has a denser sound and more balanced. Benges tend to be brighter, with the balance leaning toward the high overtones. Bachs are very symmetrical in the overtone layout.
I just played a Benge about 3 days ago versus my Bach and those are the differences I noted. The Benge is an excellent big band horn. I just need more balance and "gusto" in the sound. My Lawler even lacks some 'gusto" so that is why I use my Bachs for most applications.
Also, there is something to the core of the Bach sound. You can feel it when it hits you, and you can almost reach out a touch it. I don't know of any other horn that can do that, except for maybe Blackburn. There is an intensity to the core that seems to connect player to listener.
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Post by Clarino on Oct 26, 2003 13:33:41 GMT -5
The problem there is that you began your post with "I think".
I am not looking for opinion. Though you are free to dissagree with me as much as you like, I want facts about Bach trumpets that distinguish them from others.
Your description of Benges may be true for the way you play a trumpet, but I do not recognise your description in my trumpet. Not that I am such a superb trumpeter that I can make every trumpet sound like NE describes Bachs! Others have played my trumpet and produced similar results.
So, no £10 prize yet!
As for "blending" with the rest of the section.
Why would a trumpet section need to have matching trumpets to have a section sound that matches? If the principal flautist has a Miyazawa and the second flautist has a Yamaha, who can tell?! Being in a top orchestra means that they will have excellent tone in any case. The instrument is simply what one is most comfortable with! Do all horn sections have matching instruments? I doubt it! Trumpeters need to be less obsessed about equipment and concentrate on the music!
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Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 26, 2003 14:09:54 GMT -5
Okay, here we go again, the eternal quest for "facts".
The problem with this debate is that there are only two possible conclusions:
1.) Those of us who perceive a Bach sound hear something that others don't.
2.) Those of us who perceive a Bach sound are delusional.
One side or the other comes out looking rather foolish. Frankly, you can complain about it all you want but I hear it and so do a lot of other people with better ears than anybody on this board.
On the subject of matching horns, again, go ahead, believe what you want. I hear it, and so do a lot of other people. It's not a question of having a good sound, it's a question of having a sound that works in the section you're in. If flute players and fiddle players could play matching instruments for fifteen hundred bucks, they'd be doing it too. And you can bet your butt that in top orchestras, people in EVERY section are trying to find equipment that helps them do their jobs and blend as a section. The only difference is, trumpets are dirt cheap so we can afford to screw around more.
The bottom line is, I have only ever played one instrument that would take me more than five seconds to determine that it wasn't a Bach. That was a Yamaha Xeno, and it might have taken thirty seconds.
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Post by Lawler Bb on Oct 26, 2003 14:53:54 GMT -5
Hey guys,
I don't need a prize for establishing the Bach sound concept. I just enjoy seeing how other people see the "Bach sound". In fact, I find it very interesting how we all have such a wide range of perceptions.
I think again that NE has made an excellent point. It's all in what you hear as a player. I hear it too. His statements about blending are very valid too.
Finally, I have noticed the same things about playing other horns versus a Bach. I can notcie immediately whether it is a Bach or not. Of the horns that I have played, Yamaha comes the closest, but still has some work to do.
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Post by dizforprez on Oct 26, 2003 15:43:45 GMT -5
those that play in orchestras seem to hear the bach sound those that dont have orchestral gigs dont hear it....yeah i think it comes down to how well you can hear.
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