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Oct 25, 2003 13:28:12 GMT -5
Post by Liad Bar-EL on Oct 25, 2003 13:28:12 GMT -5
It seems that most trumpets are made with the assumption that all notes that use the 1st and 3rd valves are either right on center (in tune) or are sharp and that all notes that use either no depressed valves or only the 2nd valve are centered.
I remember that you made a trumpet that could play quartertones by the used of a movable central slide.
With all this said, would it not be more practical to just have a movable tuning slide like the quartertone horn idea and fix the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valve slides? This would also allow for a reduction of tubing and the tubing “steps” and may even enhance the sound.
This would mean less work for you Andy for you would not have to make and assemble all the valve inner slides. This would also mean less cost, more sales, better sound and everybody else jumping on the band-wagon to cut your throat unless you get a patent on this today. ;D
Liad Bar-EL
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Oct 25, 2003 13:49:22 GMT -5
Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 25, 2003 13:49:22 GMT -5
Liad --
There are at least two main problems with fixing the intonation of problem notes via the main slide. First, this necessitates having a main slide which is looser than normal. This almost certainly adversely affects the response of the instrument. Second, eliminating the 1st and 3rd slides means that all adjustments come at the main tuning slide. This means you have to adjust the slide for every note, rather than leaving it out when the valve in question isn't in use. Perhaps an example will clarify this. At the end of the Leonore call, you alternate between a low D and a low B flat. To play this on a standard setup, you leave the slide out for the D. With no third slide, you need to move the slide in and out for each eighth note, which is cumbersome and inaccurate.
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Oct 25, 2003 22:11:07 GMT -5
Post by camelbrass on Oct 25, 2003 22:11:07 GMT -5
Hi Liad,
I've actually played one of Andy's quartertone trumpets. The slide is on the bell side of the valve cluster and operates pretty much as a normal, say, 1st valve slide does. It looks to me as if you could use it as a universal problem fixer.
On the other hand NE brings up a very good point about having to alternate between good and bad notes and being able to leave the 3rd valve slide 'out there' rather than using the thing like a trombone slide.
I guess there is always a trade off..
Regards
Trevor
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Oct 25, 2003 22:46:30 GMT -5
Post by trumplyr on Oct 25, 2003 22:46:30 GMT -5
Don't some of the German Rotarys have a "pitch finder" option which is exactly what Laid's asking about? I've never played one so I don't know how effective they are. Sounds like a good idea, however like Trevor said, NE brings up some very good points.
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Oct 25, 2003 22:56:00 GMT -5
Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 25, 2003 22:56:00 GMT -5
trumplyr -- Most of the rotary trumpets I've seen have a left-hand thumb trigger which operates the third valve slide. I have played an instrument which had been modified so that the trigger operated the main tuning slide instead. Royal pain in the butt. There are other aftermarket pitch-finders which allow manipulation of the main slide as well as the first and third slides. I have enough trouble operating the three existing buttons without all that extra technology floating around. If I wanted to jack around without that business, I'd have played the trombone.
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Oct 25, 2003 23:24:09 GMT -5
Post by trumplyr on Oct 25, 2003 23:24:09 GMT -5
NE
Yes, that's how my Monke is set up & most others I'm sure. A buddy of mine had his Leidl (sp?) modified so the thumb trigger operates the 1st & 3rd slide simultaneously. It's actually pretty slick, but you're right, having to mess with something on almost every note (like a pitch finder) is too much.
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Oct 26, 2003 13:37:13 GMT -5
Post by Taylor on Oct 26, 2003 13:37:13 GMT -5
Hello again.
NE does indeed raise a good point.
Trumpets by definition are a compromise. The only brass instrument that can truly play in tune is the trombone. But sadly to my ears lots of trombone players seem unaware of this. Oops, guess I'll have a herd of irate bone players banging on my door now!!
Point is, as makers makers, we can only work with what weve got. The trumpet is an imperfect instrument. I firmly believe that when you start getting to into the science of it all then you end up making characterless horns that appear cold and sterile. Do musicians want to sound and play like computers? I think not. They moan on about samplers and sequencers taking their jobs away, then on the other hand want to perform like that!! Perhaps thats the point and I'm missing it.
I'm happy to hear imperfections. The soul man who doesnt quite hit the note, the jazzer who fluffs now and again. The blues guitarists who's finger bends only nearly get there. The reggae band with the 'what the heck note was that' from the bass player. This is all what makes the music real. So what if an instrument (or its player) isnt always 'on the button'. OK, perhaps these might be termed 'inferior' forms of music by some music snobs out there, but when most of the classical reportiore was written was the tuning all spot on then? I think not, and it was probably a lot more hit and miss than today.
I've left the thread a bit, but hopefully some might get where I'm coming from. The trumpet is a tool to help the player do his job and while it may not (at least for a good few years to come) be perfect it is a pretty reasonable compromise these days.
I have my own thoughts on making a more tunable trumpet, but unfortunately it means going away from the traditional. Great if it works BUT deep down I know (from 30 years in this business) that most brass players are traditionalists and some things are decreed sacred and are not to be messed with. So for now this type of horn is a drawing board/prototype project only.
I'm sure I'm not the only maker with these apparant constraints. Time will tell i suppose. Perhaps I might be brave enough to take such a thing to an ITG someday, but my guess is that most would not even pick it up and try it if it did not at least 'look' like a trumpet.
I think the trumpet can be improved quite a bit yet, but it will need to be one step at a time or we manufacturers could end up alienating the very people we are trying to help, you guys.
Time to walk the dog now.
Andy.
PS. The quarter tone we made had two main tuning slides. One you fixed like a normal main tuning slide. The other was parallel to the 1st slide and was operated by the thumb like the 1st slide would. This horn was made more for fun, but it did have other benifits to tuning as well. Still not a perfect horn tho'..
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Oct 27, 2003 10:12:26 GMT -5
Post by TrumpetPlayer on Oct 27, 2003 10:12:26 GMT -5
Hello again. NE does indeed raise a good point. Trumpets by definition are a compromise. The only brass instrument that can truly play in tune is the trombone. But sadly to my ears lots of trombone players seem unaware of this. Oops, guess I'll have a herd of irate bone players banging on my door now!! So, slide trumpets are the perfect pitch trumpets? ;D Point is, as makers makers, we can only work with what weve got. The trumpet is an imperfect instrument. I firmly believe that when you start getting to into the science of it all then you end up making characterless horns that appear cold and sterile. Do musicians want to sound and play like computers? I think not. They moan on about samplers and sequencers taking their jobs away, then on the other hand want to perform like that!! Perhaps thats the point and I'm missing it. I'm happy to hear imperfections. The soul man who doesnt quite hit the note, the jazzer who fluffs now and again. The blues guitarists who's finger bends only nearly get there. The reggae band with the 'what the heck note was that' from the bass player. This is all what makes the music real. So what if an instrument (or its player) isnt always 'on the button'. OK, perhaps these might be termed 'inferior' forms of music by some music snobs out there, but when most of the classical reportiore was written was the tuning all spot on then? I think not, and it was probably a lot more hit and miss than today. I've left the thread a bit, but hopefully some might get where I'm coming from. The trumpet is a tool to help the player do his job and while it may not (at least for a good few years to come) be perfect it is a pretty reasonable compromise these days. I have my own thoughts on making a more tunable trumpet, but unfortunately it means going away from the traditional. Great if it works BUT deep down I know (from 30 years in this business) that most brass players are traditionalists and some things are decreed sacred and are not to be messed with. So for now this type of horn is a drawing board/prototype project only. Would be great to learn some of your ideas. I'm sure I'm not the only maker with these apparant constraints. Time will tell i suppose. Perhaps I might be brave enough to take such a thing to an ITG someday, but my guess is that most would not even pick it up and try it if it did not at least 'look' like a trumpet. Was the Phoenix one of those “constraints” and does it represent a step without alienating us trumpet players? (rhetorical question here). I think the trumpet can be improved quite a bit yet, but it will need to be one step at a time or we manufacturers could end up alienating the very people we are trying to help, you guys. Time to walk the dog now. Andy. From what I have heard over the phone, your dog is taking YOU for a walk.;D PS. The quarter tone we made had two main tuning slides. One you fixed like a normal main tuning slide. The other was parallel to the 1st slide and was operated by the thumb like the 1st slide would. This horn was made more for fun, but it did have other benifits to tuning as well. Still not a perfect horn tho'.. Maybe a step in the right direction? All the best, Liad Bar-EL
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Oct 27, 2003 19:25:52 GMT -5
Post by Liad Bar-EL on Oct 27, 2003 19:25:52 GMT -5
There are at least two main problems with fixing the intonation of problem notes via the main slide. First, this necessitates having a main slide which is looser than normal. This almost certainly adversely affects the response of the instrument. What are those adverse affects, NE? I have a very loose tuning slide and the response on my horn is great. When ever one uses the 1st and 3rd valve slide, the response is adversely affected? Are all slide trumpets and trombones then affected “adversely” in response? Second, eliminating the 1st and 3rd slides means that all adjustments come at the main tuning slide. This means you have to adjust the slide for every note, rather than leaving it out when the valve in question isn't in use. Perhaps an example will clarify this. At the end of the Leonore call, you alternate between a low D and a low B flat. To play this on a standard setup, you leave the slide out for the D. With no third slide, you need to move the slide in and out for each eighth note, which is cumbersome and inaccurate. There is no absolute call to eliminate nonsense, NE, on any make and design of the trumpet for the first and third slides can remain as is if this is an issue; however, the nonsense that I was trying to eliminate is the box of “traditional fixation” among all trumpet makers and trumpet players in believing that all out of tune notes are sharp. I suggest that a “floating slide”, be it the main tuning slide that would come back to the original setting or even an accompanying slide, be developed so it would allow the player to adjust the note be it sharp or flat. In the past when another horn maker was asking for novel ideas to put in his horn, I suggested such an idea but he did not buy it even though he had the set up of such a design. Traditional fixation still reins, IMO even though it still remains nonsense. Liad Bar-EL
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Oct 28, 2003 3:27:00 GMT -5
Post by Liad Bar-EL on Oct 28, 2003 3:27:00 GMT -5
Clarification: I did not mean to bad mouth horn makers. I am sure that everyone, me included, feel better doing that which is familiar, known and acceptable to most of the people at large … and make money at it.
Whatever new comes on the market in the future will be from that one who has the desire to make that “new design” work and not just sit back and find fault while watching the sports, drinking a beer, soaking your feet in a hot bath at the same time while getting your back messaged, finger nails trimmed and having two young ladies stand next to you with large feathers fanning your head so that you don’t strain your brain trying to think of something new. WHEW!!! ;D
Liad Bar-EL
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Oct 28, 2003 7:42:03 GMT -5
Post by camelbrass on Oct 28, 2003 7:42:03 GMT -5
Hi,
So you've seen Andy at the workshop then? ;D
Regards
Trevor
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Oct 28, 2003 7:53:29 GMT -5
Post by camelbrass on Oct 28, 2003 7:53:29 GMT -5
Hi,
Seriously though Liad has a fair point. I like the idea that we play an 'imperfect' instrument but that shouldn't stop the quest for something better..I think Andy's trumpets reflect this. The Besson concept is great but its not the only one.
You guys are a lot more experienced than me so maybe you can answer this for me. In my limited experience I have never played a trumpet that needed to use the 1st valve slide, 3rd slide yes but never 1st. Most of the notes that use 1 or 1 2 tend to be flat to me. Is it a useful tool or is it just for specialised circumstances?
Regards
Trevor
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Oct 28, 2003 8:41:45 GMT -5
Post by Liad Bar-EL on Oct 28, 2003 8:41:45 GMT -5
Well Camelbrass, if you knew DonkeyDrums is going to be playing the "Leonore call" everyday and that only one eighth note is going to be out of tune if you don’t invest in the first and third valve slides, then you had better be going with this setup. You had better practice on 16th notes so that you can operate those slides more quickly so as to alleviate those inter horn “farts” due to backup unreleased valve slide pressure. ;D Liad Bar-EL BTW, I forgot to mention Andy's dog which he keeps at his shop. I'm sure that you can get past him though if you threw him a nice steak bone.
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Oct 28, 2003 13:30:37 GMT -5
Post by Liad Bar-EL on Oct 28, 2003 13:30:37 GMT -5
When I was studying with Bernie Adelstein, he said that my horn (Schilke) has the following tuning setup: Staff A, D, E are flat, G above staff and most notes that are high C and above are sharp. Low G and F# are sharp. Now you see why I am so adamant about tuning the flat notes and the sharp notes played without valves.
My Taylor Chicago II, however, is one of the most perfectly tuned trumpets that I have ever played depending on what mouthpiece I use.
Playing in front of an orchestra under the lights of which make the strings go sharp, I’ve found that I do not have any triggered slides to pull in so as to be in tune with them because trumpets are made only to go flat and only on valve notes.
There was a time when there were no 1st and 3rd valve slides and they were probably “mocked” when they were first developed. More than likely, the “floating slide” idea will be mocked for the same reason when change is threatening the status quo of ignorance.
Liad Bar-EL
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Oct 28, 2003 14:12:19 GMT -5
Post by Trptmaster on Oct 28, 2003 14:12:19 GMT -5
When did you study with Bernie Adlestein and where? Are we just talking about a Pitch Finder here? TM
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