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Post by Clarino on Oct 27, 2003 9:31:36 GMT -5
2.) Those of us who perceive a Bach sound are delusional. quote] We have a winner! ;D As for who can hear it, well I play in orchestras (not a full time pro gig, you understand) and can't hear it. So I'll go with NEs second conclusion. Let me know the address and I'll send the prize!
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Post by Cheechoo on Oct 27, 2003 12:56:10 GMT -5
NE,
I believe that you can determine that a horn is not a bach within 5 to 30 seconds. BUT, if you were to listen to 100 bachs, how many of those would you falsly determine were not bachs?
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Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 28, 2003 0:18:02 GMT -5
Clarino --
Oh goody. I will give you your 10 pounds back if you repeat your belief that people who hear a Bach sound are delusional to one of the following: Bud Herseth, Phil Smith, Michael Sachs.
Cheechoo --
Maybe 1 in 10. I have played Bachs with sketchy pitch or dubious craftsmanship, but very few that don't play like Bachs.
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Post by Clarino on Oct 28, 2003 15:37:09 GMT -5
In the unlikely event that I meet any of those gentlemen while I remember this discussion I will certainly do so. I am sure they will take it in the spirit it is intended.
In the mean timeI am a man of my word, where do I send the money?
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Post by dbacon on Oct 28, 2003 19:20:05 GMT -5
The Bach sound is everywhere, just listen to Bernie Glow and Ernie Royal. Vacchiano, Ray Mase, Tom Stevens, Lou Soloff etc. So many great players like the Bach sound, why is that a problem for you, Clarino?
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noel
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by noel on Oct 29, 2003 6:08:09 GMT -5
Hi Dave. At the risk of repeating myself I have to state my own opinion re your last post.
Firstly all of the above players sound totally different from each other - because they all have their own great sound. There is no such thing as a Bach sound - only the sound that a player makes when playing a Bach. All the master trumpeters you have mentioned would sound fantastic whatever instrument they chose to play.
I think you could describe their sounds more accurately as the Bernie Glow sound, the Lou Soloff sound ... etc. These players don't like the sound of a Bach trumpet - they like the sound that they make when playing a Bach trumpet - there is a subtle but very important difference.
I am reminded of a story about a great violinist who, after a concert, was complinented by a member of the audience on the fantastic sound that his stradivarius made. The maestro held the violin up to his ear for a moment and listened, then shrugged and said, "I don't hear anything".
All the best. Noel.
PS For the record a Bach is a very fine trumpet.
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Post by dbacon on Oct 29, 2003 19:38:52 GMT -5
Hi Dave. At the risk of repeating myself I have to state my own opinion re your last post. Firstly all of the above players sound totally different from each other - because they all have their own great sound. There is no such thing as a Bach sound - only the sound that a player makes when playing a Bach. All the master trumpeters you have mentioned would sound fantastic whatever instrument they chose to play. I think you could describe their sounds more accurately as the Bernie Glow sound, the Lew Soloff sound ... etc. These players don't like the sound of a Bach trumpet - they like the sound that they make when playing a Bach trumpet - there is a subtle but very important difference. I am reminded of a story about a great violinist who, after a concert, was complinented by a member of the audience on the fantastic sound that his stradivarius made. The maestro held the violin up to his ear for a moment and listened, then shrugged and said, "I don't hear anything". All the best. Noel. PS For the record a Bach is a very fine trumpet. Why did the Maestro play the Strad? Why does Lou soloff et. al.
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noel
New Member
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Post by noel on Oct 30, 2003 4:59:32 GMT -5
I don't know Dave. Why did they play them?
I wonder if you missed the point of the story about the Maestro. What he was implying is that his Stradivarius had no sound at all - it was his own sound that the listener had been admiring, not the violins sound. If that is true for a violin then how much more true it is for a trumpet where the sound is actually produced by our own flesh. It's the same principal however - we make the sound we want to make; the sound we imagine in our heads. We seek out an instrument that makes it easier for us to get close to that sound. For some people that might mean a Bach.
By the way, the instruments that Lou, Bernie and Ernie play were hand built by different people, in different factories, to different specifications from different materials compared to the mass produced, production-line instruments available today.
I have worked with Lou and had the chance to play a few notes on his NY medium bore Bach - a very beautiful, leaky old horn - and it sounded great, but nothing like Lou playing it. That's because we have different sounds.
Noel.
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Post by Clarino on Oct 30, 2003 9:31:02 GMT -5
The Bach sound is everywhere, just listen to Bernie Glow and Ernie Royal. Vacchiano, Ray Mase, Tom Stevens, Lou Soloff etc. So many great players like the Bach sound, why is that a problem for you, Clarino? It's not a problem for me. I just find it a little silly that people talk about the Bach sound as if it were gospel when no-one has been able to write down what it is. The simple fact is that it is a matter of opinion. I respect these players opinions and their choice of horn, but I dissagree with both. I must say that I find it amusing that this topic has been discussed at such great legnth both here and on TH when no conclusive decision could possibly be reached.
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Post by Lawler Bb on Oct 30, 2003 10:11:00 GMT -5
Noel,
I'll bet Lou's trumpet sounded like a Bach! Of course you will sound different, but it will still sound like you playing a Bach.
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Post by Nonsense Eliminator on Oct 30, 2003 10:12:19 GMT -5
I think the reason this topic gets rehashed so frequently is that nobody actually reads anything written by those who claim there is a Bach sound.
Over and over again, the argument is made that there is no Bach sound because everybody sounds different.
Way back on the first page, I wrote:
"I think that when most people talk about The Bach Sound, what they are talking about is a certain combination of tendencies which they have only been able to find in Bach trumpets. Obviously, different players have different sounds, but those Bach characteristics will manifest themselves in more or less the same way for more or less everybody."
My point, then as now, as that there is a difference between saying, "Certain instruments tend to have certain characteristics in their sound," and saying, "All people who play a certain brand of instrument will sound identical." I am making the first assertion. Nobody has bothered to try and dispute that; rather, they are arguing against the second assetion and pretending they are arguing with the first.
Saying that it is impossible for an instrument to have a characteristic sound is like saying there is no such thing as a white person. I look different from every single white person on the planet. But there is no questioning the fact that I also look like "a white person". The two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to belong to a group but have unique characteristics, just as it is possible to have a Bach sound with a personal sound as well. I have certain features which make me look like a white person, and I have other features that make me look different from other white people.
Only a fool would argue that there is no such thing as a "flugelhorn sound". A flugelhorn is constructed differently from a trumpet and consequently sounds different. Not everybody sounds the same on a flugelhorn, but the difference between the two instruments is similar for everybody. The difference between a trumpet sound vs. a flugelhorn sound and one brand vs. another is one of degree, not of kind. Any difference in construction will impart certain characteristics to an instrument which will tend to be similar from player to player. There is something about the way Bach trumpets are built that gives the sound certain characteristics. Whether or not Clarino feels I have successfully described them, I can hear the difference in my sound when I play, and that is that.
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Post by Lawler Bb on Oct 30, 2003 10:21:05 GMT -5
Ok everyone, no more "thinking" NE has "the facts" this time. I couldn't agree more, and that is precisely how I look at it. Frankly, that is how us Bach sound believers can say there are Benge, Monette, Callet, and Lawler sounds. Hopefully, NE's post clears things up, and we can stop gonig in circles! ;D
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Post by eclipse on Oct 30, 2003 11:19:58 GMT -5
Hi All!
Well i have read every single word all of you have had to say on this matter, and an awful lot more on TH before. I,m gonna approach this from a makers point of view, regardless of the fact i cannot play i still feel i qualify to enter into this as i have a pair of ears! I have also had the benefit of listening to hundreds of players over the years.
I read all of the posts last night and this morning went into work pondering this question. At this moment i have seven bach strads in my factory in different states of repair,1 of which is a 43 the others are straight 37,s no reverse leadpipes or conversions of any kind at all.
Some of these horns were made in the 70,s some the 80,s and some 90,s
Now my point is that i took some very basic measurements of these horns (nothing too technical) but measurements of particular component parts that if placed in a slightly different place can have a big effect on a horn.
I have to tell you that not one measurement between the whole bunch matched up! Now before someone says that i am dragging down bach,s I'M NOT!! Bach's are good horns NO DOUBT!
All makers horns can vary very slightly.
What i am trying to point out is that some of the bachs had thinner or thicker bell metal, less or more compression, a different finnish (silver or lac, raw or gold) The different decades they were made in would dictate that they were not made by the very same person, or with the same jigs. Would the company still be using all the same mandrels and tooling that many years later? maybe maybe not. Could the company continue to scource the very same materials for all those years without having to maybe change to a different mixture of brass for certain parts?
I could go on about the differences all day! BUT i won't.
In my own personal opinion (only mine) i would have to say that those of you who subscribe to this bach sound thing are :- 50% correct as although they measured differently to some extent the basic shape and design is in place so on paper they should be in the same ball park, but no way the same! Some people think that simply because the horns all say bach that they will all be the same SO NOT TRUE!, you would be amazed at how differently 2 assemblers/makers put the same component parts together from one end of the same bench to the other.
And for those who say that it is all just fairytales i would again say 50% correct !
I agree that from a technical point of view that it would be impossible for all of these horns to have a special bach sound. (like i said, only in the same ballpark)
But i have to also take into consideration that i would guess, 99% of the people who do not believe in this special bach sound generally own a different make of horn (just my guess)
Just my thought guy's of course!!
I am at this moment painting a big red target on my chest and preparing to hand out the ammunition hahaha
Regards
Leigh
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Post by trumplyr on Oct 30, 2003 11:20:59 GMT -5
I believe that once again, NE has had the final word. Very good post.
Who is that masked person ??
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Post by romey1 on Oct 30, 2003 11:45:53 GMT -5
If there isn't a "Bach Sound," then why do so many other makers copy Bachs?
romey
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