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Post by BobList on Oct 11, 2003 21:19:31 GMT -5
Hey guys....Reinhardt called it "middle regester laxity"......where if you're on lead......no problem all night...but say you're on the 3rd book, and get passed a lead, or a high note special 5th part....feels like trying to play on a bone mouthpiece after staying in the staff all night...I know what I'm supposed to do in that situation...but it's hard....not spreading the aperture**
to get that big sound down on 3rd or 4th....but to keep up volume, it seems there's no other way.....I've got strong chops above the staff all night..but that rollercoaster of a ride from below the staff to above high C kills ya.....what are some of the things you all do to keep that laxity in check?
Bob
** = Aperture in this discussion means how far apart the LIPS are spread...not teeth, jaw, or tongue...just to clarify what I mean.
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Post by dbacon on Oct 11, 2003 21:39:03 GMT -5
Man, is this ever a good question! I got to think Doc Reinhardt had the answer, just don't play too big in the lower register. Don't fall in love with your sound and keep the spread from happening. I do something to help get back my compression, don't know if you think this could work. I turn around (away from the audience) and do some half valve high note slurs. You know, that half valve cow sound we use for jazz effects. It almost acts like a mute so you are not punching out a G and making guys cringe. You can play some upward slurs (you get an overtone series, it sounds like chinese jazz) as high as you want and it brings back the lip compression you need in the high register. Beats trying a harmon mute, whch I see some guys try but that only opens me up more.
Any way, try it. If it works, send me money.
Dave Bacon
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Post by BobList on Oct 11, 2003 22:51:16 GMT -5
Dave, I've done the EXACT SAME THING....turn around, or at least point at the floor and do flips, but half valve it....it does work....i was hoping to avoid getting to that point to begin with...Doc warned against the falling in love with that 3B resonance ( I'm one)....I guess it goes back to my post about your "perception" of your sound behind the horn...after all, even laying back a little on the 3rd book...I've not been accused of not being heard in the section...Bob
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Post by Tootsall on Oct 12, 2003 0:10:38 GMT -5
As someone who plays in Community Band on parts ranging from 1st (rare) to 3rd, I think this is a wonderful thread! That is exactly the problem that I run into; able to play in the basement for a while, then having to rise "above" for a tune or two, and then back down. My chops don't know whether to laugh or cry most of the time. I can do either and for a sufficient length of time...it's the switching back and forth that's the killer (especially a 3rd part on a march...all "french horn" music).
The other confusing issue is that, once my ears get "used" to the part of the staff I'm playing in, it seems to take time to acclimatize to the different part (whether higher or lower) so that I can play accurately (fatigued or not). Any recommended exercises? (other than long tones and flow studies)?
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Post by dbacon on Oct 12, 2003 0:13:10 GMT -5
Great minds think alike! Playing loud in the section's sometimes been a problem for me, then gun it out on a lead chart. Bud Brisbois told me he hated that, he'd rather either play all Lead or none at all. Guys do it, though. I've heard the Kubis band with George Graham, Wayne Bergeron, some other great players and they all trade off and sound beautiful.
Guess that's why they get the good work.
Dave Bacon
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Post by bnbtrpt on Oct 12, 2003 1:33:03 GMT -5
This is a great discussion. I have thought about this every time I feel this happening. Against the advice of some of my teachers I have thought about the aperature. I think thats what happens here. It becomes to "wide" or not as efficient. I like to refer to it as "low locked"  Keep things out front and focused. That would be my best advice. jd |
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Post by Trptmaster on Oct 12, 2003 3:22:54 GMT -5
Wow! Great discussion and Great advice with no BS. This is what the HM is all about.
Thanks
TM
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Post by dbacon on Oct 12, 2003 10:27:08 GMT -5
This is a great discussion. I have thought about this every time I feel this happening. Against the advice of some of my teachers I have thought about the aperature. I think thats what happens here. It becomes to "wide" or not as efficient. I like to refer to it as "low locked" Keep things out front and focused. That would be my best advice. jd Keeping things out front is an excellent concept! Just that thought alone can get some pressure off the chops. It could also give you a more forward lower jaw position, the receded jaw puts all the weight on the top lip which does most of the vibrating. Playing big in the low register can allow the jaw to recede. Keep it all out in front of you! Good stuff! Dave Bacon |
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Post by trickg on Oct 13, 2003 9:12:03 GMT -5
Nice thread Bobby. I know firsthand EXACTLY what you are dealing with. ;D
I have always wondered about that too. Another part of this topic that I have always fought with is this: If I'm working on my upper register and get that to where it is functioning well, then my lower playing and legit playing, both in sound and accuracy REALLY suffers.
To put this into perspective for everyone, for the last year or so, Bobby and I have been playing 3rd and 4th books, repectively. in the same big band. Bobby has lead chops all the way, however, and this is no slam on the leaders of the band or the lead trumpet player, the guy playing lead is a lead player, both in chops, but more importantly in attitude, not to mention that he is a charter member of the band, so to move him to a different part just is not going to happen, not that it should. Both Bobby and the lead are fully capable of doing lead and there are times where the lead player has all of a sudden shuffled a part down to Bobby. Now, Bobby has to all of a sudden make a switch from 3rd book chops and mentality to lead, not always an easy task, especially toward the end of a gig where we have been playing loud and the appeture is getting spread.
I had a similar situation on Saturday where I played 4th book big band, then rolled out of that gig into a Rock Band gig. Needless to say, I was sucking wind by the end of the Rock gig. My chops still ache today! (Monday)
Great topic Bobby, I'm looking forward to reading even more of it, although as a 3B myself, (and keep in mind, I looooove my own sound ;D) I don't know if I'm going to be able to hold it back any so that my appeture doesn't get spread.
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Post by Jarrett on Oct 15, 2003 4:49:38 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, and I may be alone in my thinking here, but something that's always worked for me as far as having the lead chops AND third chops is working on my aperture control, or, as I've read from the likes of Mark Van Cleave making sure to practice using the whole range of aperture flexibility. It really works for me, improves endurance, accuracy and sound. I may be saying the same thing as everyone else just a different way, but what I'm talking about is practicing playing loud in the lower register to soft in the higher register and back down. It's also something Bobby Shew talked a bout a little in the clinic I recently saw.
-J
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Post by Jarrett on Oct 15, 2003 4:50:56 GMT -5
Oh, sure enough, I exit out of this topic and there is Dave's topic on "Aperture Control." Guess I'm late to the draw.
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Post by EmbEnh on Oct 21, 2003 3:52:22 GMT -5
It's ALL about APERTURE control in all THE REGISTERS...GOOD ONE! Once playing a note and you have a sound on the horn, I believe that although using visualisers and other observations it may appear to be a hole in the centre, in actuality it's the lips opening AND closing at HIGH speed and is an optical illusion. There is no constant hole or aperture while playing. The lips make 440 apertures per second when sounding an A 440. This is not a hole! HEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM---KEEPING THAT APERTURE AT ALL REGISTERS, AT ALL VOLUMES REQIRES ABOVE ALL ELSE TREMENDOUS AIR SUPPORT AND CONCENTRATION. [lips in the correct place for your physiology helps too.]  The hole, or aperture, observed in the lips is the amplitude of the vibration that is being sustained by the air being blown through the lips. If there is no amplitude, there is no vibration and there is no sound. So instead of calling it "an open and closing hole" or calling it "the amplitude of vibration," we call it an aperture. The tissue inside the aperture is what vibrates..
EXCESSIVE MPC PRESSURE IS THE ENEMY HERE.
Most people think that in playing lead trumpet to high g [4 legers] and squeezing a few more to DHC means that they are ok in the mpc pressure stakes--not so in my opinion. This drastcially cuts down on endurance [in excess of 4/5 hours LEAD trumpeting].The aperture is NOT just "up and down lip to lip compression" which opens and closes the aperture, it is also lengthwise a range control mechanism, and from front to back which allows the production of the dynamic/volume control. It is possible to create an aperture with the lips, with or without an air stream. By just pursing the lips [like whistling ]. This type of hole is clearly defined and it can be correctly called an aperture. If you observe lips buzzing compared to lips that are either just blowing or in a silent whistle position there is an obvious difference. We call them both an aperture, but they're not the same thing. They are two different kinds of openings in the lips that should not be thought of in the same manner. ONE IS A HOLE, THE OTHER IS A VIBRATION. I am talking about the latter...the vibration / buzz ...whatever you want to call it! How big an aperture is TOO big? ....no one knows for you personally! How small an aperture is TOO small?...no one knows for you personally! Let your sound/timbral quality ON the horn be your guide. Every note should be resonant at all registers! Although utopian, this is what you should aim for with ease of operation. Find the ability to ride the airstream - what I call ...... ......"THE BLOW!" Here are some of the symptoms of an inefficient aperture [too open, or too closed].... TOO open/spread problems: Air in tone no pp-ppp control excessive mpc pressure no lip or mpc buzz brick wall range plays flat with slides in a long way blatty sound inaccurate pitching Inability to switch registers quickly / find's it hard to play long phrases without running out of air / lack of cresc + dim. Try this ....play a 2 octave scale starting on G on top of the stave slurring all the way down and back up again in quavers/eighth notes at mezzoforte. This is difficult to do without breaks in the sound/tonal quality if your too open or spread. Now do it on Ab / A / Bb / B / C. [It is not a range test] ------------------------------------ TOO closed problems: choked off sound in all registers thin weedy tone high register "whistley" sounding no power poor attacks plays high on the pitch mostly and has to extend the tuning slides out quite a bit. Let the SOUND/TIMBRAL QUALITY ON THE HORN be your guide! - REALLY!!! Aperture test at my website... www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC |
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Keep things out front and focused. That would be my best advice.
