A visit to the factory

[camelbrass]

Hi,

During August I got the chance to visit Andy Taylor in Norwich and try a selection of his horns in the workshop, literally!! I ended up buying a Chicago II Standard with the heat treated red brass bell. I must admit that I had tried lots of trumpets while in the UK this summer but once I picked this one up it just stuck. First thing was great valves and the sound, rich and full. I must admit to having a brass band background so my concept of 'ideal' leans towards the darker side and thats exactly what you get.

I had read that some people have intonation problems with them but I must admit that, to my ear anyway, there wasn't anything overly noticable. This has been reinforced by playing in various sections since I got back (and with the tuner)..in fact I rarely have to use the 3rd slide (maybe on C#) and the 1st slide never. The other issue that I was aware of was blending in a section and again that was disproved after playing alongside the usual Bach/Yamaha combinations. In fact if there has been any complaint its that I have a tendency to be too loud...not in an ear splitting unmusical way but more of a 'hit you in the guts ' way, so I'm working hard on control.

I was lucky enough to try 9 or 10 of Andy's horns so I'll give you my very quick impressions of them.

Chicago II Lite: Lighter, more traditional sound but to me it didn't have the character of the standard.

Chicago II Standard: Red Brass bell and Yellow brass bell. I bought the red brass one but the yellow brass bell was equally good and it could have gone either way. (in various finishes)

Chiacgo II Standard: All copper. Wow!!! If looks could kill. Darker again than my red brass one but what a head turner.

Chicago II Custom: If I didn't have to worry about playing along with any other trumpeters this would have been the one. In fact my wife was listening from the office and she though somebody was playing a saxophone not a trumpet!! (in various finishes: the raw brass and the vintage lacquer were my favourites)

Taylor Quatertone: A short trumpet with the valve body closer to your body which has an extra wrap before the bell that has a larger than normal slide on it. It took a bit of practice but you could get all the slide effects and pull notes about a bit like the effect that trom players get. Because its located after the valves you can get the effect on any note. This horn sounds gimmicky and I guess it is a bit of fun but to play its seemed to be very well balanced and the sound was less dark than a traditional Taylor sound.

Taylor Phoenix: This one was the big surprise. I must admit that I tried the custom with all the flames and the square bell. For those of you that know Andy you will know that he is an American custom car fanatic and hence all the styling cues. This horn sounded absolutely amazing..clear and rich. I played the second movement of Haydn (the slow easier one) and I just got the impression that I could have filled a football stadium with sound. I also got an impression that it was a little less tight (none of the horns are tight but because of the weight, to me anyway, they give that impression).

Anyway I hope that proves to be useful to someone..its not often you get to sit down with the guy who made your horn and have a couple of cups of coffee and play all these fantastic trumpets. Just a final word, his trumpets are heavy but they are not difficult to use or to hold. My standard is just over a pound heavier than a Bach Strad, and for the difference in sound its worth it.

Regards


Trevor

[Liad Bar-EL]

Nice post Trevor.

For years I have been searching for a sound that I could not get on my Schilke and I found it on the Chic II standard with the brunt bell.

Even before I got the horn, Andy told me that I will need to blow it hard for while in order to show it whose the boss and after awhile settle down with it. There is more meaning in this statement than what it appears. The minute I would have picked up this horn and played it like my Kanstul C or Schilke medium bore Bb, I would have had a completely different reaction.

I still want the silver sound and at one point I wanted a solid silver bell on my horn. To my surprise, solid silver bells cannot be made by Andy and he has tried making them in the past. How the other companies do it seems to be a secret or are using equipment that Andy does not have. The problem is how to prevent the tub from opening up at the bend of the bell.

In any event, solid silver bells do not seem to be a regular option on most trumpets made today and it seems that the metal is just to difficult to handle.

Presently, I am searching for the right Ram’s horn sized and cut to fit one of Andy’s flugel horns as an optional bell to produce a sound that metal cannot produce.

Presently, I am having trouble making my first million dollars; so, I will have to abort this effort and start on my second million. ;D

Liad Bar-EL

[Tootsall]

Lucky you, Liad. I'm still wondering where my last million went....or if I ever had it! ;D Guess not since I don't have an Eclipse, a Lawler, a Taylor (now that cornet IS something to be named after a Greek God!) and a Marcinkiewicz lined up beside the Schilke on top of the piano! (oh...and the piano isn't a grand, it's only a 1908 upright that severely needs an overhaul and that was probably hauled across the Prairies in the back of a horse-drawn wagon).

[camelbrass]

Liad,

I'm still looking for the perfect conch shell..somebody told me the best ones were found on remote Pacific islands best I get down there!!!

I've probably already made a million but I've spent it (or does it just feel like that). Even if I hadn't then the kids schooling would have taken it anyway..or will that be my next million?

I've only ever played a bach with a silver bell and although I'm not generally a Strad fan I liked the brighter tone. It didn't seem to lose the core either like some brighter horns do (well to my humble ears anyway). Since King used to produce them back in the old days I suspect that the process involves a specialised skill rather than technology but I'm no expert. Could somebody like Kanstul make a silver bell..he can just about do everything else?

Regards


Trevor

[brj]

Liad said:

I still want the silver sound and at one point I wanted a solid silver bell on my horn. To my surprise, solid silver bells cannot be made by Andy and he has tried making them in the past. How the other companies do it seems to be a secret or are using equipment that Andy does not have. The problem is how to prevent the tub from opening up at the bend of the bell.

In any event, solid silver bells do not seem to be a regular option on most trumpets made today and it seems that the metal is just to difficult to handle.
Liad Bar-EL

Hi Liad
My bet is that Andy can make the bell, it's just not economical. By that I mean that the mistakes are too expensive. The price of the Sterling Silver would mean that he could afford no breakages.
When I was at the factoy a few years back he said the copper was hard to work with too, but of course copper is somewhat cheaper to make mistakes with.
just a thought
Brian Jones

[Tootsall]

Just a thought...but has anyone considered the possibility for taking a sterling bell off, say, a King Silversonic with worn out valves and putting the bell on a "modern" valve block? Yes, I know you could rebuild the King; I'm thinking of some of the conversions where folks have put the old French Besson bells on a Bach block.

[Forte]

brj said:

Hi Liad
My bet is that Andy can make the bell, it's just not economical. By that I mean that the mistakes are too expensive. The price of the Sterling Silver would mean that he could afford no breakages.
When I was at the factoy a few years back he said the copper was hard to work with too, but of course copper is somewhat cheaper to make mistakes with.
just a thought
Brian Jones

Hi,
A common assumption is that sterling silver is expensive. While silver is about twice the price of brass, it is still fairly inexpensive to purchase. Brass is about $6-7 per ounce while sterling is about $12 per ounce. How much do bells weigh, certainly less than a pound. However, if it did take about 5 tries to get the job done.............
Thanks,
Robert

[Taylor]

Silver Bells.

Let me give you this from my angle.

Firstly Liad, of course I can make silver bells, you should know you've had two of them!!

Most silver bells found on trumpets these days are electroformed. This has the advantage of no seams to worry about as the bell is pure silver plate. Down side is they are soft and prone to damage. So making a silver bell from sheet silver would give a more resilient bell but one must overcome the weakness in the seams ( they tend to split easily where the bell is bent.

I am full of admiration for the guys a King in the old days. I have 5 old silver belled Kings dating from 1936 to 1969 and I love them. The workmanship is first rate and obviously from a workforce that was proud of what it did.

I have made numbers of silver bells in the past (from sheet). Most of these were for Euphoniums, and yes, these things cost a lot of money. I've done them for trombones and cornets and the odd trumpet as well. The problem with the smaller bells has always been on the bends. I wish I knew the old King secret (mind you, none of these things were hallmarked, so there is no gaurantee that the seams were done using hallmarkable solders, which can be stronger). Then something happened a few years back which made me think about this. I recieved a letter from the company that makes the silver and I will quote from it...

C****** Precious Metals has taken the strategic decision to withdraw from manufacturing cadmium containing alloys. As you are probably aware, cadmium is a low melting point meatal traditionally added to certain solders to reduce their melting ranges. It is also alloyed with silver to produce 'spinning' silver alloys that possess excellent ductility.

Long and short of it is the Health and Safety Regs have had it outlawed. It gives off poisinous fumes when heated. Guess what, you cannot make a bell without heat. Ok, it smells a bit and lots of it could kill you eventually, but in smaller doses it just gives you a mild headache. Anyway, spinning or forming silver is no more.

There is a glimmer of hope in all this. I make bells for some other instrument makers as well, and a very fine French horn Makers who we supply asked for some removable Silver Flares for their horns. Some study on the subject (didn't want to turn away the work now!!) revealed that Britannia silver had better ductility than non cadmium Sterling silver. But at 96.3% purity (Sterling is 92.8%) and much less of it being produced it is quite a bit more expensive, specially when not bought in bulk. Still, it works for French horn flares (very expensive French horn flares).

Something else to bare in mind with costs is the offcuts. Suppliers dont cut out the shape YOU want. You have to by it in rectangular sheets. Who pays for the offcuts? Thats right, the customer. Who foots the bill if it all goes wrong? This time the manufacturer. So, there will always be a safety net in there to allow for things that dont go to plan, and that has to be passed to? yes again, the customer.

So, are you prepared to pay the price? If you are, then I will look closely at a Britannia Silver bell opion (thats 96.3% pure remember) for the Chicago model. Somehow, I doubt I'd be making many, but you could prove me wrong of course.

End of Novel.

Andy.

[Liad Bar-EL]

EXCELLENT post Andy!!!

I stand corrected.

Liad Bar-EL